tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post2623885702942109755..comments2024-03-06T06:34:42.881-05:00Comments on EconoSpeak: The Protests at Evergreen State College, Un-FoxedUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-20177817277548780042017-06-10T00:45:56.737-04:002017-06-10T00:45:56.737-04:00David Sucher:
I had wondered the same thing about ...David Sucher:<br />I had wondered the same thing about why so long after the Day of Absence. I talked to someone who knows someone at Evergreen and they speculated that it had something to do with students being on edge and fearful following the Portland MAX train stabbings. There were at the time also numerous upcoming rallies that those on the far-left believe are being staged by white supremacists and neo-Nazis (the free speech rally that was on 6/4 and the March Against Sharia which is today. I'm not really following this because nothing I've read has shown me any proof that Bret said anything racist and I watched part's of Tim Pool's (@timcast) 6 hour livestream from the free speech rally. He reported that most of the attendees of the rally were run of the mill conservatives (though there may have been some white supremacists there), and most of the violence came from antifa (this seemed to be backed up by who the police arrested). <br /><br />I'm also unclear if there was a more recent email that set them off. I've read snippets of at least one of Bret's other emails but not seen all of his emails collected together. The only email I've read in full is the one in which he laid out his opposition to Day of Absence. But he has sent other emails regarding his concerns about various equity proposals that the administration is planning to push through. I guess these days the mere act of expressing concerns over equity proposals instead of getting on board immediately makes one a "racist". Keikohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493615969843452981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-71969607631791932722017-06-09T08:37:33.858-04:002017-06-09T08:37:33.858-04:00Are there ANY specific complaints of racism, haras...Are there ANY specific complaints of racism, harassment, police over-reaching which you believe are credible?<br /><br />Indeed there is.<br /><br />Well apart from police overreach.<br /><br />A student posted on a FB page saying, something like ~ lets try to make 'a certain class' mostly black/brown this year. Another student, a non white person, should that even matter?, posted the same comment but replaced the words black/brown with white. This resulted in abuse being posted against him, then later deleted. However he took screenshots of the abuse and pined them up around the dorms. As a result he was verbally abused/threatened in the cafeteria. The police where informed, and did there job.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-67966887496609319152017-06-08T18:37:01.567-04:002017-06-08T18:37:01.567-04:00most fascinating thing;
Approx March 12 -- Pivota...most fascinating thing;<br /><br />Approx March 12 -- Pivotal BW-Love email exchange. Disagreement but not disagreeable.<br /><br />Approx April 12 -- Day of Absence happens, without incident so I assume BW was outvoted, overruled, ignored etc<br /><br />Approx May 23 -- Student protest at BW's office -- we have all seen the tape.<br /><br />May 27 -- BW on FOX Tucker Carlson show <br /><br />Can someone shed some light on that timeline? Why would the students be demonstrating at Weinstein's office more than a month after BW I had lost the battle? i.e. the Day of Absence actually happened. The students won. So why the vitriolic protest?<br /><br />It's very difficult to figure out a timeline -- and I know there were important events going back into September… But none of it makes sense.<br /><br />The key thing is that Weinstein lost the battles (Strategic Equity Plan, Day of Absence) and yet the students keep fighting to focus on ONE faculty member.<br /><br />I don't understand. Do they want to get revenge for winning? <br /><br />David Sucherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11006665374136997404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-52032301279778622192017-06-08T18:10:05.963-04:002017-06-08T18:10:05.963-04:00David Sucher & St. Crispy:
Bret's brother ...David Sucher & St. Crispy:<br />Bret's brother Eric said on Twitter that Fox had "stepped in" and called out NY Times and NPR for being absent.<br />https://twitter.com/EricRWeinstein/status/868560436441915392<br /><br />It's difficult for me to imagine that someone who self-identifies as a progressive antiracist (see Rubin Report interview) would have contacted Fox and volunteered an interview. Mainstream and leftwing media have been very behind on covering this story.<br /><br />Peter: <br />I don't know that you'll see this but thanks for offering your perspective and dialoguing with people in the comments. People unfamiliar with academic administration in general and Evergreen in particular are missing a lot of context and it's easy for people to jump to conclusions from inaccurate and misleading media reports. I've been sick, so had plenty of time to follow the story and watch Bret's interviews and read a lot of articles. He comes off as extremely credible and rational and having watched some of the protest videos it's hard to see him as the bad guy here. But I have been wondering what context is missing that he either hasn't shared or isn't privy to. I believe I've seen the "ill-advised" social media post you mention which struck me as highly unprofessional. I'm sure that people's personalities factor into everything that is happening at Evergreen, something that isn't apparent to those of us on the outside.<br /><br />Anonymous parent:<br />I'm so sorry for what your son has been going through. I have been really shocked by how the administration has been handling the threats from protesters to Bret and students who don't agree with them. I have worked in higher ed and have never seen an administration behave in this manner. I hope he's able to make it through the remainder of the semester safely and that things will calm down on campus.Keikohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493615969843452981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-77702625963319401982017-06-07T16:43:51.489-04:002017-06-07T16:43:51.489-04:00Weinstein claims that in the Rubin Report video. I...Weinstein claims that in the Rubin Report video. I don't have a time mark unfortunately. It's worth the watch, at least up until the Q&A portion, which is mostly re-hash. <br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fEAPcgxnyY St. Crispyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17875400264428822067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-56979719213931153112017-06-07T16:16:28.477-04:002017-06-07T16:16:28.477-04:00St. Crispy,
I can relate to your fascination for ...St. Crispy,<br /> I can relate to your fascination for this very sad situation. <br /><br />And I'm curious to know if you have a link concerning who approached whom? I was not aware that Fox approached Weinstein. Any link? Thx<br />David Sucherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11006665374136997404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-64395909384920438142017-06-07T15:56:35.402-04:002017-06-07T15:56:35.402-04:00I hate to admit that I've been sucked into the...I hate to admit that I've been sucked into the train wreck, and have compulsively watched and read everything I could get my eyes on. I have to admit I've been unable to find the data that undoes my initial reaction that Weinstein's language was appropriate and very precise. <br /><br />The one thing no one seems to be addressing, is that Fox came to Weinstein, not the other way around. Where is Maddow, Chris Hedges, Salon, Slate, the actual paid reporters at HP, the Guardian, MJ? *crickets* He not only has a right, but a clear personal stake in getting his story out to counter the accusations of racism. <br /><br />Drilling down, the roots of this look to me like they have far more to do with faculty hiring procedures and what appears to be people within the administration stirring up their students to help them establish a little hiring fiefdom. (Did you know that all faculty and staff e-mail falls under FOIA? Months ago, Weinstein claims, Naima Lowe had one of her students do a FOIA request for all of his e-mails, to make a documentary. Anyone, on this list could do the same for Naima Lowe and Bridges. Maybe that is a place to start with an Alumni investigations - before any lawsuits are filed.) <br /><br />I don't know why I should care, 30 years out, but it's emotionally difficult to watch. <br /><br /> St. Crispyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17875400264428822067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-81484141321651456532017-06-07T09:03:25.493-04:002017-06-07T09:03:25.493-04:00Kevin, why did you and your wife donate so much mo...Kevin, why did you and your wife donate so much money to Evergreen in the first place? You clearly have issues with it and that's a lot of money.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-73437259368911563142017-06-06T19:00:21.962-04:002017-06-06T19:00:21.962-04:00Thank you for writing about what happened on campu...Thank you for writing about what happened on campus. As an alumni who has spent the past week trying to gather accurate information about the chain of events, I'm glad to finally have a non-sensationalized first hand account I can refer others to. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00624152383456879394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-32419671981085338842017-06-06T13:33:19.761-04:002017-06-06T13:33:19.761-04:00What claims have Weinstein made that were exaggera...What claims have Weinstein made that were exaggerated or untrue? Is it always permissible for students at Evergreen to graffiti the buildings and shout "fuck you" to administrators and professors or this a recent phenomenon?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891253935456197225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-80327345212743309352017-06-05T23:01:24.116-04:002017-06-05T23:01:24.116-04:00@DavidSucher ... Yes, I saw that video and while I...@DavidSucher ... Yes, I saw that video and while I cannot bear Limp Bizcit (sp) or any of their ilk, I commended the video to my son. He responded that the intimidation captured there was far less threatening than most of what he has experienced. Mr Dorman is either unaware of it, or is intentionally glossing it over in his report. I repeat here that my socio-political sympathies lie with those who are pejoratively called "SJWs" by some, but that the first responsibility of the administration is the physical safety of <i>all</i> students, even those who have pale skin and simply want to get a degree, or who wear Clark Kent glasses and wield chalk.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-41624487593839893442017-06-05T21:50:12.724-04:002017-06-05T21:50:12.724-04:00I would not want to be a student Evergreen...beari...I would not want to be a student Evergreen...bearing in mind that there are a total of 4000 students at Evergreen and only about 200 who are rowdies.<br /><br />Here is a sad & yet heartening post:<br />https://heatst.com/culture-wars/rise-of-chalkman-one-evergreen-state-college-student-refuses-to-cave-to-the-mob/David Sucherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11006665374136997404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-66430401931109484032017-06-05T21:23:08.627-04:002017-06-05T21:23:08.627-04:00I regret that I write as "anonymous," bu...I regret that I write as "anonymous," but out of concern for my son, I must do so. My son is a freshman at TESC. We are "white" persons and he was raised in the Jewish faith. I raised him in a philosophy nearly identical to the one apparently espoused by Prof. Weinstein: first, that from a scientific perspective, "race" is a meaningless term; second, that the spurious concept of "race" has always and only been used to ill purpose; and third, that in the U.S., people of African ancestry were kidnapped en masse, forced to live as cattle, and that their descendants, although technically "equal" to others by government fiat, are to this day systematically denied an equal share in our society; and fourth, that it is our responsibility as "white" persons to do whatever we can to remedy this historic wrong. A corollary is that all persons have the right to physical safety and a minimum of respect. Mr Dorman's account of events is vastly at odds with my son's. He was told by several students that he as an [racial epithet deleted] had better not be on campus on the special day. This was not an "invitation." It was presented as a threat. He has subsequently been threatened by mobs of students solely because of his pale skin. He feels betrayed by the institution, and I am beyond furious. Mr Bridges's <i>first</i> responsibility is to ensure the physical safety of the students. Instead of being ordered to "stand down," police should have been <i>encouraged</i> to arrest the instigators of violence (both verbal and physical.) Instead, Mr Bridges cowered before the thugs who threatened my son, and the children of other parents, as well as Prof. Weinstein. Instead of keeping our children safe, he praised those who threatened them! Mr Bridges's cowardice in the face of this archetypal bullying is a despicable (and possibly criminal) dereliction of duty. He should at very least be censured and removed from his position.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-62457737633459969252017-06-04T20:57:23.881-04:002017-06-04T20:57:23.881-04:00I am with anonymous on this one again… I think the...I am with anonymous on this one again… I think the anti-Bret forces have a problem, partly because they have framed so much as anti-Bret.David Sucherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11006665374136997404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-45643037998783259902017-06-04T19:38:41.958-04:002017-06-04T19:38:41.958-04:00I give you credit for trying to be objective, but ...I give you credit for trying to be objective, but your own posts are laden with bias. I give you credit for trying, but you come off as a well intended but naive and subjective reporter, more objective than a zealot, but hardly objective. <br /><br />And if Bret is misrepresenting the story, get on the media and counter it. Im sure they would have you on. If Evergreen does not deserve to be in this position, get on TV and defend your school. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-58860727428470502892017-06-03T22:55:14.991-04:002017-06-03T22:55:14.991-04:00Again, Peter, thanks for letting us voice our conc...Again, Peter, thanks for letting us voice our concerns. The dialogue here has proven that people can passionately yet politely discuss issues - even disagree - without being disrespectful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-22645570374525677912017-06-03T22:53:42.566-04:002017-06-03T22:53:42.566-04:00I can well understand your reluctance to speak can...I can well understand your reluctance to speak candidly and openly in a public venue like this.<br />Best wishes.David Sucherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11006665374136997404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-21178023422093448252017-06-03T22:47:25.571-04:002017-06-03T22:47:25.571-04:00A brief closure response on my part: I won't b...A brief closure response on my part: I won't be tracking this thread any more. It's not because there aren't legitimate questions that merit a reply, but because I can't stay with it -- too many other things to do. For those who are interested, I gave a longish interview today to a production company for HBO, and some of my remarks might appear in a forthcoming Vice News segment.<br /><br />Maybe at some point, after the dust settles and no one cares any more, I'll write up my own personal views. Or maybe fold that into a longer form writing drawing on, and extending, the blog posts I've written for EconoSpeak on identity politics themes.Peter Dormanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00093399591393648071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-51432749432816708032017-06-03T21:51:06.715-04:002017-06-03T21:51:06.715-04:00I would turn it around, Kevin, and say "Even ...<br />I would turn it around, Kevin, and say "Even if the students act like idiot asshole jerks in every possible way, is the essence of their gripe legitimate?"<br /><br />Judge would not look at the rudeness of the style of the way the claim is presented but whether it was true or not.<br /><br />Of course sometimes you can get a sense of the claim is not legitimate one it's completely overblown… The students would be much more better off if they simply present to their specific ropes in a matter of fact way… So my sense is there they don't have anything related to complain about.… But that's me and I'm not there and that's why I'm asking Peter for his opinion and not just opinion but does he really know if there's any specific claims that have any substance to them.David Sucherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11006665374136997404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-23859022459537286702017-06-03T21:39:48.896-04:002017-06-03T21:39:48.896-04:00Even if the students have some legitimate beefs th...Even if the students have some legitimate beefs their concerns were lost in the ugly stream of f-bombs, insults, and demands they made (such as telling the college Presidebt to "f*%k off" and ordering him to not use his hands when he spoke). I've been arrested many times for non-violent civil protests - including demonstrating against apartheid in South Africa - and never once did I scream profanities, spew insults, or hurl pejoratives at those I was protesting or at law enforcement. The behavior of the Evergreen students is a black mark on social justice struggles. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-23969793944314261772017-06-03T19:47:15.884-04:002017-06-03T19:47:15.884-04:00
Peter,
Are there ANY specific complaints of racis...<br />Peter,<br />Are there ANY specific complaints of racism, harassment, police over-reaching which you believe are credible? Are/have they being/been investigated specifically?<br /><br />Quote in Olympian which by its flimsy language is not persuasive at all:<br /><br />“This institution is really (messed up) and racist,” Evergreen freshman Shayna Clayton told The Olympian during that protest. “We shouldn’t have to deal with that.” <br /><br />Before the protest, a group of students had sent the following statement to The Olympian: “What started out as anti-black comments on social media has turned into the dismissal of the rights of students and femmes of color, physical violence by police, and false sentencing of students protesting. Black trans disabled students are actively being sought out and confronted by campus police constantly, police are refusing to explain their actions and harassment. Students will not stand for this anymore, as students of color have never felt comfortable on campus and have not been treated equally.”<br /><br />Read more here: http://www.theolympian.com/news/local/article154249574.html#storylink=cpy<br />David Sucherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11006665374136997404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-32648239144925899792017-06-03T18:37:49.814-04:002017-06-03T18:37:49.814-04:00As ought to to be evident, both from the posts to ...As ought to to be evident, both from the posts to this blog and the op-eds that are linked to in this very chain of comments, Evergreen State can not be said to be faring well in the court of public opinion. I say this not as proof of rightness or wrongness but simply as a statement of apparent fact. Thus, it does not appear to be an effective defense to say that everyone critical of Evergreen State is getting it wrong, because that defense simply does not appear to be working. I regard that as a fact, not a value or opinion.<br /><br />So, it would seem to behoove defenders of Evergreen State to provide more information about the entire context for this affair. I have cut-and-pasted below two passages from Professor Dorman's own comments in this comment chain as a place to start. So, to text #1:<br /><br />"Weinstein repeatedly argued that the Council was imposing an atmosphere of intimidation, a claim with an element of truth but which was delivered with what can charitably be described as insufficient awareness of his own assumptions and biases about race and racism."<br /><br />If there was an "element of truth," then that would appear to concede that there was indeed an "atmosphere of intimidation." This conclusion can only be assuaged by explaining what, precisely, Professor Weinstein wrote that could "charitably be described as insufficient[ly] aware . . . of his own assumptions and biases about race and racism." In this era of "microaggressions"— which, by definition, cannot be known to those who "commit" them, this is an essential point. So, what did Professor Weinstein say?<br /><br />This leads to text#2:<br /><br />"But meanwhile a number of students of color and their supporters were organizing behind the scenes. They were upset about several incidents involving the campus police, particularly one in which two black students were taken into custody following a heated verbal exchange over racial issues in the student cafeteria. There was also buzz among students that a number of the faculty were displaying racial and gender bias in the classroom and anger about Weinstein’s email. Last week they launched their protest by invading Weinstein’s class and shouting at him to either apologize or resign."<br /><br />Here, it behooves defenders of Evergreen State to explain precisely what connection there was between "incidents involving the campus police" and Professor Weinstein's emails. This cannot be accomplished without revealing what Professor Weinstein actually said.<br /><br />In short, the only evidence that is now appearing before the public is, demonstrably, not accruing to Evergreen State's benefit. The more factual light that can be shed on the matter, in explicit detail, the better for Evergreen State.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-32315041267520409402017-06-03T18:07:52.401-04:002017-06-03T18:07:52.401-04:00Based on what I have been reading, and learning fr...Based on what I have been reading, and learning from you, Peter, I don't think it's a bad idea for the state to reconsider whether Evergreen should be a state school with public support. <br /><br />Or perhaps there should be a test for faculty to understand the U.S. Constitution since shutting down Evergreen would be a terrible burden on the 90% of the students who are rational people.<br /><br />Too many of the faculty to not understand free speech.<br />They seem to think that free-speech is for people they agree with. <br />They are setting a very bad example for students.<br />That should not be acceptable for university or college faculty.<br /><br />Just because Turkey is far worse does not mean that we should be very very worried about Evergreen.<br />David Sucherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11006665374136997404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-11953133097924493772017-06-03T18:01:27.081-04:002017-06-03T18:01:27.081-04:00Peter, sorry if I had said anything to upset you, ...Peter, sorry if I had said anything to upset you, which you obviously are. That of course puzzles people on the outside. We are told that the situation is extremely complex. I think your president said that.<br />To many of us on the outside, the situation is very simple.<br /><br />1. If there are complaints from the students about any activities on campus, they should document them as to date, time, persons, actions and so forth and present them to the administration for some kind of remedial action;<br />2. If they do not receive a response they should tell the world including going to court or quasi-judicial process;<br />3. The administration has the right and duty to set forth actions on campus including complaints from stakeholders;<br />4. Anyone and of course especially faculty staff and students are free to comment on administration decisions;<br />5. And of course anyone can comment on the comments of other people etc etc (or ignore them!) in a peaceful, non-violent, non-threatening, non-browbeating manner;<br />6. Those who do not comment in a peaceable manner should be sanctioned;<br />7. End of story.<br /><br />From the outside world it looks pretty simple, Peter. <br />Maybe you and other faculty should get away literally physically from campus and look back to get some perspective?David Sucherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11006665374136997404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-75322368309289613762017-06-03T17:01:37.364-04:002017-06-03T17:01:37.364-04:00Thanks, Kevin. Please note that the HuffPo piece ...Thanks, Kevin. Please note that the HuffPo piece (a) was not written by anyone with direct knowledge of events and (b) repeats at the outset the alt-fact that Evergreen programmed "a day without white people".<br /><br />Repeat: I'm a white person and no one told me to stay away from campus, or even that I would lose a few allyship points by showing up. No one. In my view, any reportage of or think piece about the Evergreen events that repeats this falsehood disqualifies itself from serious consideration.<br /><br />This is not to say that everyone acted wonderfully during this episode or is acting wonderfully now. I think any readers who are still paying attention at this point in the comment thread should feel free to make up their own minds about whose transgressions are more deplorable -- provided they don't trash the facts.Peter Dormanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00093399591393648071noreply@blogger.com