Tuesday, February 8, 2022

"There is so little real friendship in the world!" (Jane Austen, Persuasion)

A twitter exchange worth following up: 

16 comments:

Anonymous said...

Just remembered: Harry S. Sullivan, a student of Freud and superb psychologist, wrote in about 1950 about friendship and loneliness. Sullivan wrote of loneliness as the "most profound psychological problem" his patients confronted. Of course, being socially connected and meaningful is what makes work so essential. Working productively, we are never lonely.

Anonymous said...

As for Waldman, I have no use for the sneering nastiness. Phooey.

Anonymous said...

"As for Waldman, I have no use for the sneering nastiness."

After thinking more, this may be too harsh a criticism but I do not care for the condescending tone all through.

djk said...

My first impulse is to think about this through the lens of commodity fetishism. This would seem to link back towards Adorno’s and the Frankfurt School in general’s critique of the culture industry and our blogger’s thoughts on free time, the social, and friendship. But I also think Anon’s psychoanalytical connection is well worth thinking harder about and I know the Frankfurt folks did that. Friendship can be a source of pleasure but also can involve guilt and a sense of failure (“I didn’t stand up for my mate Joe when he needed me”). In a society predicated on and structured by value, such object-oriented cathexis even, perhaps especially, when that object (commodity) is a “friendship substitute”, is a very contradictory thing.

I need to try harder with Adorno & co. I just find his whole Central European cultural snob thing hard to get past. My own baggage….

Anonymous said...

Was it friendly of him to end a twitter debate with me imperiously saying "we'll have to leave it there"?

Anonymous said...

DJK:

Friendship can be a source of pleasure but also can involve guilt and a sense of failure (“I didn’t stand up for my mate Joe when he needed me”). In a society predicated on and structured by value, such object-oriented cathexis even, perhaps especially, when that object (commodity) is a “friendship substitute”, is a very contradictory thing.

[ Terrific comment. ]

Sandwichman said...

Well, this has blown up! Over a thousand visits in the last hour. Around half of those are coming from Marginal Revolution and most of the rest from "other."

WC Varones said...

I listen to Rogan's podcast because it's thoughtful and interesting, with a wide range of interesting guests who may be new to me.

Contrast that to cable news which is nothing but partisan hate porn.

Sandwichman said...

"Contrast that to cable news which is nothing but partisan hate porn"

I wouldn't know about cable news. I never watch.

But when I click on WC Varones's blog what I see is this meme "joke":

"AOC has Covid

A photo of AOC laughing with an open mouth.

"Anybody else think horse paste might be worth a try?"

Apparently Varones likes some "hate porn."

Rick from Baltimore said...

Rogan is Oprah for dudes. Both pass the time, act as a surrogate friend, and regularly have quack doctors on as guests. Oprah's quacks were coded as left of center and so she never got cancelled over it.

Sandwichman said...

Yes, Oprah was a surrogate friend. The loneliness and boredom has no exclusive position on the political spectrum, although to call "Oprah" left is a stretch.

The culture industry does not manufacture left-wing surrogate friend celebrities. The "left" of the celebrity spectrum is slightly left of center.

Anonymous said...

What if I want to be as solipsistic as possible, going full Grizzly Adams and working productively in nature to be as self-sufficient as possible? Do I still need your friendship not to impose policy restrictions on public camping, etc.?

Anonymous said...

Yes, Oprah was a surrogate friend....

[ Simply from the experience of acquaintances, since I had no direct experience, Oprah was culturally valued and valuable to many, and I have only respect for Oprah and those who valued what they found in Oprah. As for loneliness or needing friends, this is no character weakness. ]

J.D Lambert said...

As a long time Rogan listener he had a huge effect on me, to the point where I still imagine having conversations with him years after getting bored of his podcast.

I've observed that in my conversations with my inner Rogan character that I don't know that much about him, and I don't care about him. I never liked the guy much. I was interested in the conversations with the weird people.

Before years of internet use, I had a small and narrow worldview. As I listened and read more information on the net my view of how other people think and act in the real world congealed together over the years. The political and the personal melded so much that I don't believe there is much difference anymore.

Giving any topic political language reads to me as grandiosity. If a person on the net is saying something personal about themselves, I can accept that as small and undramatic. When you start to have people who claim authority over large swathes of the world I see them as dramatic. It's much less interesting for someone to say, "I view the world this way..." than "the world is like this, believe me! I have lots of friends that will be mad at you if you go against my beliefs!"

For example, Jordan Peterson's popularity jumped when he took public political stances, then it jumped again when people bought into the substance of his content. So you have a dramatic Jordan Peterson who is portrayed as a political villain, and a Jordan Peterson who gets to guide people on how to live. Joe Rogan strikes me the same way: when a political guest arrives now Joe Rogan is suddenly political. I find that strange.

Loneliness is dramatic. It invites interest. Connection, however, is boring. There is little to speak about a happy and connected person. The power struggle, and politics, is missing.

Anonymous said...

censor rogan, deprive those socially challenged deplorables!

less trouble than making up 'data' to refute the guests.....

data is more work than psycho-dismissing the attack on ur cognitive dissonance.

everyone should feel good

ignorance is bliss

war is peace

and biden is king!

Sandwichman said...

projection above