tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post913492131401136112..comments2024-03-06T06:34:42.881-05:00Comments on EconoSpeak: The Wide Open Origin Question Regarding SAR-Cov-2Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-42775243603229497582020-04-29T16:07:10.999-04:002020-04-29T16:07:10.999-04:00Yeah, I said no more comments from me, but thanks,...Yeah, I said no more comments from me, but thanks, Anonymous.<br /><br />Having given you a hard time I do want to acknowledge your efforts to keep us all honest and careful not to mindlessly repeat anti-Chinese points. These matters need to be carefully vetted, and a serious bottom line to all this is how much we still really so not know.<br /><br />rosserjb@jmu.eduhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09300046915843554101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-66267595468551090372020-04-29T09:46:11.065-04:002020-04-29T09:46:11.065-04:00Jerry Brown:
Please know that I never argued with...Jerry Brown:<br /><br />Please know that I never argued with any comment you made. I am sure you are right, and never even thought about questioning or arguing with any comment you made. You are completely right.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-82268408869419033122020-04-29T06:49:01.942-04:002020-04-29T06:49:01.942-04:00Jerry Brown:
"Criticizing the Chinese govern...Jerry Brown:<br /><br />"Criticizing the Chinese government and prejudice against people who are Chinese are two completely different things! Government policy should ALWAYS be questioned and criticized where necessary. Does not matter if that government is in the USA or China or Germany or Nigeria."<br /><br />Yes, this is completely correct. I agreed with your comments, and disputed none. You were always right, and I never argued with what you wrote.<br /><br />Thank you so much for your help. I did agree with all your wrote.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-61879238062787112402020-04-29T06:39:52.071-04:002020-04-29T06:39:52.071-04:00Barkley Rosser
I am so sorry. I really do try to...Barkley Rosser<br /><br />I am so sorry. I really do try to comment intelligently and carefully and fairly, but I often seem to go wrong. You are remarkably patient and I always appreciate the time you take to correct me.<br /><br />I realize after your painstaking explanation that you are completely right and I am completely wrong. I now agree with your argument completely, and am sorry I learn so slowly.<br /><br />I do thank you for all your consideration. What you are in fact doing is teaching me to be a better teacher. Thank you for tolerating me. I hope to do better with your help.<br /><br />All you have written here I can agree with. I do try.<br /><br />Thank you, as always.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-88051116076966585292020-04-29T01:56:36.778-04:002020-04-29T01:56:36.778-04:00This will be my last comment on this thread as it ...This will be my last comment on this thread as it has degenerated into exactly what I expected it would, Anonymous declaring that lots of factual reports must be wrong or ignored because Trump and his associates are engaging in nasty attacks on China. I agree with Jerry that noting problems with things with Chinese policy cannot be disallowed because of bad behavior by the Trump administration, behavior we are all fully aware of and agree is bad, anymore than false claims by the Chinese government against the Trump administration, notably this one that the virus started in the US and was carried to Wuhan by US soldiers should justify forbidding anybody else from criticizing any actions by the Trump administration.<br /><br />Anyway, given the track record of false statements coming from various people in China with the clear suppression of reporting on relevant matters relating to the origin of the virus to the point of making people disappear, this statement by the lab director cannot be accepted unquestioningly without further evidence. I had not noted it before, but in fact Josh Rogin's column addressed this issue precisely at its conclusion with respect to this particular lab director, that given this phenomenon of people disappearing who disagree with what is clearly an official line, her statements about "on her life" must be viewed very seriously in that she may be concerned about her life if she were to disagree with the official line.<br /><br />As I see it, especially in light od all these many disturbing reports, the Chinese government could fairly easily allay much of this suspicion by being a bit more open on certain things.<br /><br />1. Let a team of international scientists, maybe one affiliated with the WHO, visit the labs in question in Wuhan. If in fact they are not engaged in secret military research, and most have made no such claims, then it is not at all clear why nobody should be allowed to visit these labs if in fact they had nothing to do with the origin of the virus.<br /><br />2. Let Huang Yenling make a public statement showing that indeed she is alive and well. I think this could be done without revealing precisely where she is now, although offhand I do not see why that should be some super state secret. After all, they have let Le Zehua make his strange public statement, even allowed him to publicize the video he made of him being arrested. I see no clear eeason whatsoever why this Huang must not make any sort of public statement to prove that she is indeed alive and well.<br /><br />3. Provide more details regarding the various early patients.<br /><br />I have called for transparency by both the US and China on this matter, and I see no reasonable reason at all why the Chinese government cannot do any of the above. If the Wuhan labs really had nothing to do with this origin, they should do so.rosserjb@jmu.eduhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09300046915843554101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-71806100432030673862020-04-28T12:27:40.094-04:002020-04-28T12:27:40.094-04:00Criticizing the Chinese government and prejudice a...Criticizing the Chinese government and prejudice against people who are Chinese are two completely different things! Government policy should ALWAYS be questioned and criticized where necessary. Does not matter if that government is in the USA or China or Germany or Nigeria. Jerry Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-21834034605188813312020-04-28T10:03:24.822-04:002020-04-28T10:03:24.822-04:00Failing to understand the prejudice that has been ...Failing to understand the prejudice that has been and is being directed against 1.4 billion Chinese, even as the Chinese were made prejudicial targets before and following the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 is distressing:<br /><br /> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_ActAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-92019044027839103372020-04-28T09:33:36.785-04:002020-04-28T09:33:36.785-04:00Even as Jews through Europe were persecuted over c...Even as Jews through Europe were persecuted over centuries in the midst of infectious illness outbreaks, influential figures in the United States are now looking to persecute Chinese. This is morally wrong and terrifying.<br /><br /><br />https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/opinion/sunday/coronavirus-orhan-pamuk.html<br /><br />April 23, 2020<br /><br />What the Great Pandemic Novels Teach Us<br />People have always responded to epidemics by spreading rumor and false information and portraying the disease as foreign and brought in with malicious intent.<br />By Orhan PamukAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-88858500404995230912020-04-28T09:10:19.565-04:002020-04-28T09:10:19.565-04:00https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-04-26/The-GOP-stra...https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-04-26/The-GOP-strategy-will-turn-America-into-a-cauldron-of-hatred-PZ2xIHqqC4/index.html<br /><br />April 26, 2020<br /><br />The GOP strategy will turn America into a cauldron of hatred<br />By Tom Fowdy<br /><br />On Friday night a report * emerged in Politico that contained details of a 57-page leaked document from America's Republican Party detailing their strategy for the upcoming elections. The booklet recommended that candidates should exclusively focus their electoral push on scapegoating China, blaming them for the COVID-19 epidemic which it described as a "hit and run."<br /><br />The document urges the party to "not defend Trump" but to attack Beijing and focus on portraying the Democrats as "soft on China," arguing that this will constitute an "effective strategy." The document was written by Brett O' Donnell, who has also advised Mike Pompeo and Arkansas Senator Tom Cotton.<br /><br />Those following American politics closely are not likely to be surprised by this development....<br /><br />* https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/24/gop-memo-anti-china-coronavirus-207244Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-4221778774297147302020-04-28T09:01:02.458-04:002020-04-28T09:01:02.458-04:00Barkley Rosser:
The lab director has claimed that...Barkley Rosser:<br /><br />The lab director has claimed that Huang Yanling is alive and well, but digging by me finds no report of her actually making a public appearance to prove it....<br /><br />[ There has long been an intent among selected influential figures in the United States to ruin China. That intent was especially cultivated by the current president from the last campaign on and has evidently grown. I find this intent thoroughly immoral. ]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-83964011623859003552020-04-28T08:37:50.976-04:002020-04-28T08:37:50.976-04:00https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202002/16/WS5e48dc...https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202002/16/WS5e48dccaa310128217277d84.html<br /><br />February 16, 2020<br /><br />The statement said Huang graduated with a master's degree from the institute in 2015. Since graduation, she has been working and living in other provinces and has never been infected with novel coronavirus and is in good health....<br /><br />[ No other response is necessary. No further response would be appropriate. The privacy of any former student should of course be respected, especially so in regard to a malicious rumor. ]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-42264406456133597932020-04-28T08:27:15.498-04:002020-04-28T08:27:15.498-04:00Barkley Rosser:
The lab director has claimed that...Barkley Rosser:<br /><br />The lab director has claimed that Huang Yanling is alive and well, bu digging by me finds no report of her actually making a public appearance to prove it....<br /><br />[ Unfortunately I carelessly misspelled Huang Yanling. This response to the absurd rumors is sufficient:<br /><br />https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202002/16/WS5e48dccaa310128217277d84.html<br /><br />February 16, 2020<br /><br />Huang Yanling, a graduate of the Wuhan Institute of Virology, a subsidiary of Chinese Academy of Sciences, was not the first person infected with novel coronavirus, nor has she been infected with the virus, the institute said on Sunday.<br /><br />The institute made the statement in response to information circulated widely online that Huang, a postgraduate student at the institute, was the first patient to contract the novel coronavirus pneumonia in Wuhan, Central China's Hubei province, the outbreak epicenter.... ]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-54665150353069247442020-04-27T22:35:47.701-04:002020-04-27T22:35:47.701-04:00Anonymous, surely you agree that people have the r...Anonymous, surely you agree that people have the right to criticize government responses and that doesn't necessarily mean they are biased in any way?<br /><br />China has not performed perfectly here. USA government has also not performed perfectly to say the least. I wouldn't mind if Donald Trump tested out his theories by drinking a quart of bleach about now. Pretty sure how that ends up. He is without doubt correct that he wouldn't need to worry about the virus any longer. <br /><br />Am I biased because I would say he is a moron? Jerry Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-69662662015970238152020-04-27T21:21:12.696-04:002020-04-27T21:21:12.696-04:00Anonymous,
The lab director has claimed that Huan...Anonymous,<br /><br />The lab director has claimed that Huang Yinlang is alive and well, bu digging by me finds no report of her actually making a public appearance to prove it. The first report of her as Patient Zero appeared in the Beijing News on Jan. 2, which was followed by these claims she is alive and well, although nobody will say where.<br /><br />Another candidate for the earliest known case is one supposedly from Nov. 17, supposedly a 55-year old man about whom nearly nothing is known, including whether he is even alive or not, although I have seen at least one claim he was never at the wet market in Wuhan, although he was from Wuhan.<br /><br />Regarding civets, many were slaughtered after the past SARS outbreak. I found one story from March 16 by Clive Jarvis in The Scientist that says that civets "have not been ruled out" as an intermediary animal between bats and humans for this virus, but that there are genetic reasons why they are less likely than pangolins or snakes or turtles.<br /><br />Regarding Le Zehua, nobody has accused him of "breaking into" the lab. He was reporting on various things. He is 25 and had been working in Beijing for the CCT, but resigned and went into Wuhan partly to investigate the disappearance on Feb. 6 of Chen Quishi, who was an activist journalist who had been vocering protests in Hong Kong and had been in trouble with the government. When he disappeared (and he remains disappeared) hehad been reporting on details of the disease in Wuhan, crowds of people in hospitals and piles of corpses, this sort of thing. Another less well-known citizen reporter was local Wuhan businessman Bin Fang, who disappeared on Feb. 8. They posted reorts on You Tube, and neither of these seems to have had anything to do with the lab story.<br /><br />According to various reports Le Zehua, who is also a rapper, was quarantined inh s Wuhan until March 28 but then released to stay with his family elsewhere. When he made his appearance on April 22, along with releasing the video of his arrest onf Feb. 26, he put out a saying. Reports claim he seemed very different from before, very "neutral" and low key. He provided an English translation of the saying, which I repeat here.<br /><br />"The will of the people is unpredictable, the heart of the Tao is fathomless. In order to make the will of the people consistent with the heart of the Tao and reach the state of Unity of people and the state of the cosmos,, only the way is to concentrate all energy on cultivation of the good nature of the heart, do not act in extreme, do not change faith, do not be fickle, uphold the doctrine of the golden mean of Confucian orthodoxy."<br /><br />I agree with Anonymous that the Chinese authorities in conjunction with the WHO have done a great deal to aid in understanding the virus, most notably by being the first to ssequence its genome and making that public. There are cleaely a lot of loose and strange ends here, but there has also been a lot of good work done there, arguably more than in the US where we have more cases and more deaths than any other nation, thanks in substantial part to the botched policies carried out by our government.rosserjb@jmu.eduhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09300046915843554101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-91758996814765430922020-04-27T19:30:37.201-04:002020-04-27T19:30:37.201-04:00Huang Yiliang, by the way, was shown to be alive a...Huang Yiliang, by the way, was shown to be alive and well, and has had no association with the Wuhan research facility since 2015. That is why I used the term "nonsense."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-82579359166355189702020-04-27T19:20:02.089-04:002020-04-27T19:20:02.089-04:00About supposed "patient zero Huang Yiliang,&q...About supposed "patient zero Huang Yiliang," this is of course nonsense.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-74252028662151294442020-04-27T19:11:45.307-04:002020-04-27T19:11:45.307-04:00As for a resident, in the midst of an epidemic, of...As for a resident, in the midst of an epidemic, of Wuhan breaking quarantine and trying to break into a research laboratory. That is a criminal matter and such a person must be immediately arrested and again quarantined for as long as health authorities consider necessary and investigated after. This is simply a criminal matter, the likes of which other countries have had to deal with.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-19466339607983882942020-04-27T18:43:08.832-04:002020-04-27T18:43:08.832-04:00The Chinese timeline, end of December through Marc...The Chinese timeline, end of December through March 31:<br /><br />http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-04/06/c_138951662.htm<br /><br />April 6, 2020<br /><br />China publishes timeline on COVID-19 information sharing, int'l cooperationAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-29210738299924467722020-04-27T18:38:18.332-04:002020-04-27T18:38:18.332-04:00Terrific series:
https://peoplesdispatch.org/202...Terrific series:<br /><br /><br />https://peoplesdispatch.org/2020/04/23/how-the-chinese-authorities-and-the-who-handled-the-coronavirus/<br /><br />April 23, 2020<br /><br /><br />https://peoplesdispatch.org/2020/04/14/how-china-broke-the-chain-of-infection/<br /><br />April 14, 2020<br /><br />How China broke the chain of infection<br /><br /><br />https://peoplesdispatch.org/2020/04/07/how-china-learned-about-sars-cov-2-in-the-weeks-before-the-global-pandemic/<br /><br />April 7, 2020<br /><br /><br />https://peoplesdispatch.org/2020/03/31/growing-xenophobia-against-china-in-the-midst-of-corona-shock/<br /><br />March 31, 2020Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-65073007445150928752020-04-27T18:33:20.026-04:002020-04-27T18:33:20.026-04:00This is all excellent, while the suggestion of a c...This is all excellent, while the suggestion of a civet cat as an intermediary strikes me as important for geneticists to examine and I would expect such examination to already be underway. However, what you have done in all is clearly show that Chinese authorities have been making sure that investigations and research and public release of all be rigorous and that speculation be limited. This is dealing with a national and global health crisis and there must be precision and necessary care must be taken.<br /><br />As far as I can tell, and I have followed the matter since December 31, Chinese national authorities have been completely responsible and careful and open. Local authorities have been monitored, with national authorities quickly moving to Hubei Province for the duration. Local problems have been quickly and judiciously dealt with.<br /><br />The WHO was informed of the emerging pneumonia on December 31, the matter was internationally reported on December 31, the United States was expressly informed on January 3 and thereafter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-76665013216497490352020-04-27T18:03:03.634-04:002020-04-27T18:03:03.634-04:00Here are some things I have found with further dig...Here are some things I have found with further digging.<br /><br />When I googled about suppression in Shanghai I got a story about more general suppressiion of research on the origin of the virus, with all research needing to be approved by the Ministry of Science and Technology within three days of even starting it, with this applying to Fudan U. in Shanghai. This story appeared in the Guardian on April 11, a pretty reputable source not in the US.<br /><br />theguardian.com/world.2020/par1/11/china-clamping-down-on-coronavirus-research-deleted-pages-show .<br /><br />I pursued the story of the suppressed paper in Guangzhou, which turns out to have been written by Botao Xiao of th South China University of Technology and posted for awhile in February on ResearchGate.net, entitled "The possible origin of 2019-nCoV coronovirus." He put forward the argument about Wuhan labs possibly as a source. He then withdrew the paper on Feb. 26 declaring that is was "not based on direct proofs," which is not the same as saying it was false. This seems to be an important date.<br /><br />There is now a more recent Guardian article from just five days ago about the reappearance of Wuhan citizen-journalist Li Zehua,<br /><br />theguardian.com/world/2920/apr/22/missing-wuhan-citizen-journalist-reappears-after-two-months . <br /><br />He had visited the most suspicious lab in Wuhan and other places and was arrested on Feb. 26, the same day Xiao withdrew his paper. Apparently he was initially charged with "creating public disorder." He managed to video his arrest, which can be found on the internet. In the end they decided to quarantine him for two months supposedly because he has visited infected areas. He just came out. Apparently two other journalists in Wuhan who disappeared about the same time he did remain missing.<br /><br />There is a lot more, but the hard fact is that the Chinese officials are not at all acting in what might be called a transparent way about all this.<br /><br />Oh yes, I did find at least one candidate for an intermediary animal between bats and humans, the pangolins, which some have thought might be the original source. If they are an intermdiary it is thought the transmission from bats may have happened some time ago, with it possible the crucial mutations happened in pangolins. It is uncleae if pangolins were sold at the Wuhan wet market.<br /><br />I have on my own thought of another possible intermediary I have seen nobody suggest, although I do not know why not. That would be some sort of civet. A civet was the intermediary animal for the original SARS virus. I also saw that civets may have been for sale at the Wuhan wet market. Given those facts, I am surprised nobody is advocating that theory, but maybe there is a reason.rosserjb@jmu.eduhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09300046915843554101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-46212276028928453102020-04-27T17:35:40.817-04:002020-04-27T17:35:40.817-04:00Thanks a lot; I am now thinking about your argumen...Thanks a lot; I am now thinking about your argument.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-25457940492844184282020-04-27T15:16:52.142-04:002020-04-27T15:16:52.142-04:00Do keep in mind, Anonymous, that the authors of co...Do keep in mind, Anonymous, that the authors of columns do not write the headlines for their columns. <br /><br />I shall do some checking on the matters you request, although I have seen the story about the Guangzhou paper elsewhere.<br /><br />I have also in the last day seen claims that the Chines government is refusing to let any foreign scientists, not just ones from the US, visit either of the labs in Wuhan. This claim comes from sources I do not trust, but if it is true, this is seriously not good.<br /><br />Another report I have seeen, again from a source less reliable than say David Ignatius, is that at least one of the labs in question has had bats at the lab to study. If that is true, then all the arguments about how hard it is to develop this virus in a lab become irrelevant, much less the ongoing search for the supposed intermediate animal that transferred it from bats to humans. Somebody just got it from a bat in the lab.<br /><br />As it is, there are also stories about an alleged Patient Zero, Huang Yenliang, who supposedly worked at WIV. Those at WIV claim this individual no longer works there and is in good health, but this individual also seems to have disappeared with nobody able to track him/her down (not sure of gender). There are certainly a lot of loose ends with this, and it would certainly be helpful if the Chinese government would let foreign scientists visit these two labs to see what is there.rosserjb@jmu.eduhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09300046915843554101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-14736707767189340602020-04-27T10:38:47.538-04:002020-04-27T10:38:47.538-04:00Links to the columns:
David Ignatius, "China...Links to the columns:<br /><br />David Ignatius, "China puts even the truth on lockdown."<br /><br />https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/how-china-can-end-the-covid-19-conspiracy-theories-before-they-get-worse/2020/04/23/4999a93a-8586-11ea-878a-86477a724bdb_story.html<br /><br /><br />Josh Rogin, "The risks of collaboration with China."<br /><br />https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/the-coronavirus-crisis-shows-the-risks-of-scientific-collaboration-with-china/2020/04/23/4ccd5850-85a8-11ea-878a-86477a724bdb_story.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4900303239154048192.post-91122352225179193802020-04-27T08:38:52.985-04:002020-04-27T08:38:52.985-04:00David Ignatius, "China puts even the truth on...David Ignatius, "China puts even the truth on lockdown."<br /><br />Josh Rogin, "The risks of collaboration with China." <br /><br />[ Clarifying, these are mere political screeds to vilify 1.4 billion Chinese. These are prejudiced writings with the distressing intent of recreating the Cold War. ]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com