While you are listening to "Alabama", read Shaun's wonderful post. I have to say, though, Shaun, that if I had the gamelan player beating on my head asking for my favorite piece and instrument, it would be Giant Steps and the tenor. I also recommend the short solo he takes on "Blue in Green" on Miles' *Kind of Blue* as one of the most beautiful things ever created.
I'll just say that Coltrane is my favorite saxophone player ever - and I'm saddened every time I think about his death at age 40. But I'm sure he's been entertaining the angels for the best 40 years.
What's not to love. Equinox, My Favorite Things (especially the rendition with Eric Dolphy that goes on for about 18 minutes) Blue Trane, on and on. Is there better? There is as good, but in other ways. There is nothing better. That's my feeling about the music of John Coltrane. I'm sad to have never heard him live. I've met his son, Ravi, an excellent sax player himself. I can only wonder what must be the burden of being a professional musician and John Coltrane's son. Coltrane's sound is my personal favorite. I refer to the whole body of work, not the album.
I am perplexed, however, about the change that took place in 1965. His music took a dramatic, if not sudden, change. He walked out to the edge and, to my mind, fell over. What was beautiful and harmonic turned harsh and cacophonous. I'm curious if any of you who are Coltrane fans have any thoughts as to why this may have occurred. I've got my own theory, but I'd like to hear other's.
I heard Coltrane for the first time last night Dr. Quinn. . . I have no idea what piece it was, but Toledo's NPR has a nice jazz show in the middle of the night. Anyway, I enjoyed it!
My theory is that his ideas of what music he wanted to make just evolved in ways that left a lot of his fans behind, but that may be too simple a theory.
The same thing happened with Miles, and a lot of classical music fans have yet to be reconciled with most of what happened in that genre in the whole twentieth century. But my view of music, and art in general, is that artists have a perfect right to change any way they want. They're the ones making the art, not the rest of us. Otherwise, we'd still be banging sticks on rocks, or whatever the Stone Age musicians did.
jonj, I have no argument with the artist's inclination to evolve. Coltrane's music did just that starting as early as 1957 and onward, and one could readily comprehend the progressive character to the music he made as it wound its way through new forms of harmony and time. But 1965 was too different. The change seemed abrupt and dramatic. I think one significant factor was his wife, Alice, a gifted musician in her own right. She was definitely into a different sound. Coltrane broke clean of his long standing quartet and along comes Pharoah Sanders. Eric Dolphy was, to many ears, a bit extreme, but Sanders could have been mistaken for Sun Ra. It is a puzzle.
Coltrane's evolution should not be confused with Miles Davis's later move to fusion jazz, which happened at the end of the 1960s after Coltrane died. In terms of the mid-60s, I think that Alice Coltrane was only part of it, with the major changes happening before she came on board. The bigger shift seems to coincide with his switching to Impulse to record his work.
Of course there is a matter of opinion here. Are you referring to A Love Supreme, jonj, which many (myself included) consider to be his greatest work, indeed, one of the single greatest albums ever produced in jazz? It is borderline on this newer approach, which involved both a freer and more complicated approach to melody, rhythm, and harmony.
The full move in this direction was the album Ascension, which does not have Alice Coltrane on it, but is probably his most cacophonous and most difficult to comprehend. It has a much larger number of musicians than usual and is very loud and hard to follow, although with a majestic main theme. It should be seen as part of a move to "free jazz," following closely on Ornette Coleman's similar album, although Coltrane's simply blows Coleman's out of the water in terms of its intensity and complexity. It is a great album, but something that may not be all that pleasant for those for whom Coltrane's best album is My Favorite Things.
I think the influence that Alice Coltrane had on her husband was more to bring in foreign, mostly Asian, influences into his music. This did not necessarily imply greater cacophony. Indeed, there are some pieces and sections on his final albums on which she participates that are gorgeous and not at all clashing. These final albums were Meditations and Expression, with the longest piece on the last, from his final recording session, being the majestic "To Be," in which John Coltrane plays an alto flute.
Barkley, There is no question for me that A Love Supreme is a magnificent piece of music. As you point out it demonstrates, "...a freer and more complicated approach to melody, rhythm and harmony." Exactly the point, the piece has all three characteristics and never approaches discord, nor does it have a cacophonous quality. Recorded at the end of 1964 with his classic quartet of Tyner, Jones and Garrett. It makes what is soon to come even far more difficult to understand. Has he then reached a height from which he, Coltrane, cannot see how to surpass himself? I don't think that's the case. I have often wondered that given his untimely death from cancer in '67, could he have been diagnosed those two years earlier? Would an artist at the height of his creative accomplishments now facing death lament its probability? Was the music that followed a way of expressing his despair? It's the only thing that to me makes sense of the sudden turn in his creativity to a form that sounds so much like rage.
On Late Coltrane, my rule of thumb is that (with one exception, noted below) if Elvin is there, so am I! The passages where just the two of them play, with bass and piano laying out, are always astonishing. *Meditation*, which Barkley has already mentioned, is a case in point.
I confess, though, to not liking Ascension - I own it, but have played it maybe 10 times in 25 years! There is very little like it in his discography - even in the late period.
But what are your thoughts regarding the instigation for the change. The content of the sound is just too emotional to attribute it to Coltrane exploring new heights, or depths as it may be. I can think of no other musician of Coltrane's stature that made such an abrupt, emotional distinction in his music. This issue has for a ling time been a curiosity to me, and I'd be interested to know others' opinions.
I am not sure if you agree with Kevin and me that there is some really beautiful stuff on some of Coltrane's final albums. Have you heard Expression, or the final section of Meditation? No, they do not match A Love Supreme, but then it is the rare musician whose peak album or piece is one of his very last. Most musicians evolve, and I am not sure that I see the changes in those last few years as all that dramatic compared to where he was right before he got to that stage. Heck, the changes Miles Davis went through were much larger.
So, I guess I don't see the big mystery here, and I continue not to "blame" Alice Coltrane for the more difficult parts of his final period. Yes, Ascension is pretty much too much, listenable to in only very certain states of mind or mood, and otherwise just too much. It is the standout, with most of the later stuff not all that super different from A Love Supreme in basic style.
BTW, I did get lucky to see Coltrane once, and it was with that final quintet a bit over a year before he died. Although I also prefer the quartet that did A Love Supreme, that concert remains in my mind as one of the most moving and just plain mind-blowing that I have ever attended, whether classical, rock, or jazz, simply out of this world unfucking believable.
My thoughts on the great man here:
ReplyDeletehttp://kikoshouse.blogspot.com/2007/09/john-coltrane-appreciation.html
While you are listening to "Alabama", read Shaun's wonderful post.
ReplyDeleteI have to say, though, Shaun, that if I had the gamelan player beating on my head asking for my favorite piece and instrument, it would be Giant Steps and the tenor. I also recommend the short solo he takes on "Blue in Green" on Miles' *Kind of Blue* as one of the most beautiful things ever created.
I'll just say that Coltrane is my favorite saxophone player ever - and I'm saddened every time I think about his death at age 40. But I'm sure he's been entertaining the angels for the best 40 years.
ReplyDeleteWhat's not to love. Equinox, My Favorite Things (especially the rendition with Eric Dolphy that goes on for about 18 minutes) Blue Trane,
ReplyDeleteon and on. Is there better? There is as good, but in other ways. There is nothing better. That's my feeling about the music of John Coltrane. I'm sad to have never heard him live. I've met his son, Ravi, an excellent sax player himself. I can only wonder what must be the burden of being a professional musician and John Coltrane's son. Coltrane's sound is my personal favorite. I refer to the whole body of work, not the album.
I am perplexed, however, about the change that took place in 1965. His music took a dramatic, if not sudden, change. He walked out to the edge and, to my mind, fell over. What was beautiful and harmonic turned harsh and cacophonous. I'm curious if any of you who are Coltrane fans have any thoughts as to why this may have occurred. I've got my own theory, but I'd like to hear other's.
I heard Coltrane for the first time last night Dr. Quinn. . . I have no idea what piece it was, but Toledo's NPR has a nice jazz show in the middle of the night. Anyway, I enjoyed it!
ReplyDeleteJack,
ReplyDeleteMy theory is that his ideas of what music he wanted to make just evolved in ways that left a lot of his fans behind, but that may be too simple a theory.
The same thing happened with Miles, and a lot of classical music fans have yet to be reconciled with most of what happened in that genre in the whole twentieth century. But my view of music, and art in general, is that artists have a perfect right to change any way they want. They're the ones making the art, not the rest of us. Otherwise, we'd still be banging sticks on rocks, or whatever the Stone Age musicians did.
jonj,
ReplyDeleteI have no argument with the artist's inclination to evolve. Coltrane's music did just that starting as early as 1957 and onward, and one could readily comprehend the progressive character to the music he made as it wound its way through new forms of harmony and time. But 1965 was too different. The change seemed abrupt and dramatic. I think one significant factor was his wife, Alice, a gifted musician in her own right. She was definitely into a different sound. Coltrane broke clean of his long standing quartet and along comes Pharoah Sanders. Eric Dolphy was, to many ears, a bit extreme, but Sanders could have been mistaken for Sun Ra. It is a puzzle.
Coltrane's evolution should not be confused with Miles Davis's later move to fusion jazz, which happened at the end of the 1960s after Coltrane died. In terms of the mid-60s, I think that Alice Coltrane was only part of it, with the major changes happening before she came on board. The bigger shift seems to coincide with his switching to Impulse to record his work.
ReplyDeleteOf course there is a matter of opinion here. Are you referring to A Love Supreme, jonj, which many (myself included) consider to be his greatest work, indeed, one of the single greatest albums ever produced in jazz? It is borderline on this newer approach, which involved both a freer and more complicated approach to melody, rhythm, and harmony.
The full move in this direction was the album Ascension, which does not have Alice Coltrane on it, but is probably his most cacophonous and most difficult to comprehend. It has a much larger number of musicians than usual and is very loud and hard to follow, although with a majestic main theme. It should be seen as part of a move to "free jazz," following closely on Ornette Coleman's similar album, although Coltrane's simply blows Coleman's out of the water in terms of its intensity and complexity. It is a great album, but something that may not be all that pleasant for those for whom Coltrane's best album is My Favorite Things.
I think the influence that Alice Coltrane had on her husband was more to bring in foreign, mostly Asian, influences into his music. This did not necessarily imply greater cacophony. Indeed, there are some pieces and sections on his final albums on which she participates that are gorgeous and not at all clashing. These final albums were Meditations and Expression, with the longest piece on the last, from his final recording session, being the majestic "To Be," in which John Coltrane plays an alto flute.
Barkley,
ReplyDeleteThere is no question for me that A Love Supreme is a magnificent piece of music. As you point out it demonstrates, "...a freer and more complicated approach to melody, rhythm and harmony." Exactly the point, the piece has all three characteristics and never approaches discord, nor does it have a cacophonous quality. Recorded at the end of 1964 with his classic quartet of Tyner, Jones and Garrett. It makes what is soon to come even far more difficult to understand. Has he then reached a height from which he, Coltrane, cannot see how to surpass himself? I don't think that's the case. I have often wondered that given his untimely death from cancer in '67, could he have been diagnosed those two years earlier? Would an artist at the height of his creative accomplishments now facing death lament its probability? Was the music that followed a way of expressing his despair? It's the only thing that to me makes sense of the sudden turn in his creativity to a form that sounds so much like rage.
On Late Coltrane, my rule of thumb is that (with one exception, noted below) if Elvin is there, so am I!
ReplyDeleteThe passages where just the two of them play, with bass and piano laying out, are always astonishing. *Meditation*, which Barkley has already mentioned, is a case in point.
I confess, though, to not liking Ascension - I own it, but have played it maybe 10 times in 25 years! There is very little like it in his discography - even in the late period.
But what are your thoughts regarding the instigation for the change. The content of the sound is just too emotional to attribute it to Coltrane exploring new heights, or depths as it may be. I can think of no other musician of Coltrane's stature that made such an abrupt, emotional distinction in his music. This issue has for a ling time been a curiosity to me, and I'd be interested to know others' opinions.
ReplyDeletejack,
ReplyDeleteI am not sure if you agree with Kevin and me that there is some really beautiful stuff on some of Coltrane's final albums. Have you heard Expression, or the final section of Meditation? No, they do not match A Love Supreme, but then it is the rare musician whose peak album or piece is one of his very last. Most musicians evolve, and I am not sure that I see the changes in those last few years as all that dramatic compared to where he was right before he got to that stage. Heck, the changes Miles Davis went through were much larger.
So, I guess I don't see the big mystery here, and I continue not to "blame" Alice Coltrane for the more difficult parts of his final period. Yes, Ascension is pretty much too much, listenable to in only very certain states of mind or mood, and otherwise just too much. It is the standout, with most of the later stuff not all that super different from A Love Supreme in basic style.
BTW, I did get lucky to see Coltrane once, and it was with that final quintet a bit over a year before he died. Although I also prefer the quartet that did A Love Supreme, that concert remains in my mind as one of the most moving and just plain mind-blowing that I have ever attended, whether classical, rock, or jazz, simply out of this world unfucking believable.