More than a century later, we still do not know the origin of the Spanish flu, with at least three currently scientifically supported origins out there: North America (possibly Kansas), China, and British soldiers in France. This will not be resolved. I suspect that this may become the outcome of the current debate over the origin of our current pandemic. While mostly this seems to have become a matter of random infection from animals versus an accident in a lab in Wuhan, upon further study this seems more complicated on all sides of this, with crucial data missing forever. I fear the outcome of this debate will be no more resolved a centuury from now than the matter of the Spanish flu origin is now.
I also note before proceeding further that this discussion has become highly politically charged, with some regular readers here having strong views on this. I want to be as csreful and clear in my further discussion here as possible, withoug getting dragged into the hot politics that indeed are adhering to this matter.
Upfront I shall take off from two columns in the Washington Post, 4/24/20, one by David Ignatius and the other, just below it, by Josh Rogin, both on this issue. Given firewalls and all that, I shall indulge by quoting extensively from both of their columns:
Ignatius's is titled, "China puts even the truth on lockdown." I follow wih selected quotes:
"Top scientists I contacted over the past week were skeptical about theories that are spinning about deliberate Chinese attempts to engineer the toxic virus. But many said it's possible that a pathogen that was being studied by researchers in Wuhan could have leaked accidentally of two virology labs there, setting off the chain of infection."
"Chinese researchers did some careful research in January and February, when the virus was spreading. But research was subsequently tightly controlled, and in at least one case with scientists in Guangzhou, suppresed."
"The recent commotion about conspiracy theories comes partly from an unpublished paper by several maverick European scientists that was privately circulated last week. The authors argued that covid-19 was a 'purposefully manipulated' virus created partly through 'gain of function' research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. A 2015 paper by Chinese and American scientists had described such an effort to enhance the potential infectivity of the bat coronoviruses so they could be studied and treated better.
Both U.S. and British intelligence analysts are skeptical that covid-18 resulted from deliberate human engineering. The claims about 'engineered origins' in the paper were 'not substantiated' by British government scientists, a British official told me. U.S. intelligence analysts are also confident that the virus wasn't created in a laboratory, but they haven't ruled out the possibility that a natural organic virus that was enhanced for scientific reasons may have leaked accidentally in Wuhan."
Just below Ignatius's column is the one by Josh Rogin entitled, "The risks of collaberation with China." Following are selected quotations from it:
"The Chinese government won't share actual virus samples from the earliest cases. The Shanghai lab first released the coronaviurs genome was shut down for 'rectification.' All research on the virus origin in China is now restricted. Critics have disappeared."
"Jonna Mazet , professor of epidemiology at the University of Californial at Davis, was director of the U.S. Agency for International Development's $200 million Predict program, which spent 10 years trying to anticipate the next viral pandemic, before the Trump adminstration cut almost all of its funding last September. Shi [lead scientist at Wuhan Virology Institute handling bat coronovirus reseach] was Predict's principal investigator in China.
Mazet told me she did not believe it was likely the coronavirus escaped the Wuhan lab, but she acknowledged, 'Absolutely, accidents can happen.'"
So there we have the argument that it might have come from a lab in Wuhan, of which there are two, the other being the Wuhan Center for Disease Control and Prevention. with most of the claims of an accidental source for the world coming from the other lab, WIV.
The main alternative to the above (which absolutely does not include any claim that it was bioweapon consciously cooked by the Chinese govt as some, such as Sen. Cotton have claimed, a view now accepted by nodody outside the US) is that it came from animals directly to humans, not from a lab.
I am not an expert on the underlining science of this, but there are several serious possible sources for an ultimately animal rather than accidental lab, source of this pandemic. There are several possible alternatives here, and while now most think an animal source is it, the disagreement and uncertainty over just which of these is ir is striking. I see at least three theories, of all which have problems,
1) It came from snakes, either as the original source or as an intermediate transmitter from bats in Yunnan, a southwestern province of China, several hundred miles from Wuhan, with at least two Chinese candiates out there, the kral an cobra.. Something supporting this theory is that snakes may have been sold at the Hunan Seafood Market in Wuhan, the definite site of the major original outburst of the virus in late 2019.As of now this theory does not have much support, but...
2) It came from pangolins, not bats or snakes.The snake theory dates back to January, but the pangolin theory has more recent academic support, if not yet accepted in a peer-reviewed journal, science-clert.com/more-evidence-suggests-pangolins-may-have-passed-coronavirus-from-bats-to-humans. Sorry, that is not a functioning link as I have put it, but that on google will get it for you. While that was a fairly recent serious scientific report, it has convinced near nobody among serious scients. This theoy has not been generally accepted among most relevsnt scientist, although it is possible that either snakes or pangolins might have been intermediate species from bats. For the possible theory that pangolins were not the originators but the transmitters from bats, it is an unresolved debate over whether or not pangolins were sold in the Hunan wet market of Wuhan, with the weight of current eviidence leaning to they were not.
3) That it ultimately came from horseshoe bats in caves in Yunnan province, several hundred miles south of Wuhan, is probably the most widely accepted theory. It is accepted that bats were not sold im the wet market of Wuhan. So if the mutation that created this virus happened in those bats rather than in one of the labs in Wuhan only 300 yards from the notorious wet market, shut down and scrubbed on Jan. 1 it had to come through an intermediate animal, which happened wih SARS going through civets and with MERS that went through dromedary camels.
4) It may not have come out of the wet market in Wuhan. Of the first 41 identified cases, 13 of them were not from there, with exactly where the earliest officially recognized case on Nov. 17 was precisely from remains a state secret of the the Peoples' Republic of China.
5) Both Ignatius and Rogin, and a vast number of others think that what should happen is that the US and China should stop playing games with each other and be fully open about relevant information, which they should share with the whole world.
Barkley Rosser
34 comments:
This should be an important essay, but neither Ignatius nor Rogin strike me as reasonable sources around which to build. These are severe political columnists obviously looking to satisfy predetermined objectives, rather than simply investigating.
The topic though is quite important. Possibly then other analytical sources might be considered.
https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-04-21/WHO-All-evidence-show-coronavirus-likely-originated-in-bats-PSk0ko14Ry/index.html
April 21, 2020
WHO: All evidence shows coronavirus likely originated in bats
"All available evidence suggests the virus has an animal origin and is not manipulated or constructed in a lab or somewhere else," WHO spokeswoman Fadela Chaib told a Geneva news briefing Tuesday.
Fadela Chaib refuted recent comments that the virus emanated from a lab in Wuhan, central China, saying the available evidence showed that the virus was not manipulated by humans in a lab or somewhere else.
Chaib underlined that the WHO is combating two pandemics. "We have the pandemic with the virus, but we are also combating 'infodemic'. And when you have a new virus, like this one, it is to be expected that a lot of spurious theories about the origin of the virus be relayed."
It was not clear, Chaib added, how the virus had jumped the species barrier to humans but there had "certainly" been an intermediate animal host. "It most likely has its ecological reservoir in bats but how the virus came from bats to humans is still to be seen and discovered."
She pledged that the WHO welcomes all countries to support efforts to find the origin of the virus, noting that several working groups, including Chinese experts, are actively trying to find the origin of this virus....
At this point we have to deal with it and it doesn't really matter where it came from. I would like to blame some party and try to make sure it doesn't happen again- but it doesn't really matter right now. Absolutely- I would hope all countries are being open about what they know as far as treatment and preventions for this disease.
https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-04-26/The-Lancet-Trump-s-decision-to-harm-WHO-is-crime-against-humanity--Q04gZfpxtK/index.html
April 26, 2020
The Lancet: Trump's decision to harm WHO is 'crime against humanity'
Richard Horton, editor-in-chief of The Lancet medical journal, criticized U.S. President Donald Trump's decision to suspend funding to the World Health Organization (WHO), calling it a "crime against humanity."
"President Trump's decision to harm an agency whose sole purpose is to protect the health and wellbeing of the world's peoples is a crime against humanity. It is a knowing and inhumane attack against the global civilian population," Horton wrote in an article published on the website of The Lancet on Saturday.
He urged Trump to "restore WHO's funding immediately and offer the agency his full and unconditional backing."
Trump announced on April 14 the suspension of U.S. funding to the WHO for its alleged mishandling of the COVID-19 pandemic. The decision sparked criticism across the world, as many politicians and leaders of international organizations called for solidarity in the fight against the global public health crisis.
In his article "Offline: Why President Trump is wrong about WHO," Horton reviewed the timeline of the organization's COVID-19 response, noting that it said publicly that "human-to-human transmission was possible" as early as January 14.
"On Jan 4, 2020, WHO tweeted that '#China has reported to WHO a cluster of #pneumonia cases – with no deaths – in Wuhan, Hubei Province. Investigations are underway to identify the cause of this illness," Horton wrote.
"On Jan 14, the possibility of human-to-human transmission was raised by WHO's Maria Van Kerkhove at a WHO press briefing," he added.
It took the agency just four days to inform the world about the "pneumonia of unknown cause" after it was first reported in China and just 30 days to declare a Public Health Emergency of International Concern (PHEIC), he said.
Trump tweeted on February 24 that "CDC (U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) & World Health [Organization] have been working hard and very smart," Horton noted. "His present attack on WHO contradicts his earlier praise for the agency."
Horton stressed that Trump's accusations of the WHO are "without foundation."
An investigative report by the Washington Post said earlier this month that Trump's denial and delayed response in the critical first 70 days of the outbreak had caused the U.S. to suffer through a situation that could have been mitigated with decisive action.
After another reading to be sure, the columns by Ignatius and Rogin are merely political screeds and of no value to me.
https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1246450306889723904
Paul Krugman @paulkrugman
And now trying to rewrite that history and claim that it never happened
The Washington Post @washingtonpost
It took 70 days from initial notification for Trump to treat the coronavirus not as a distant threat or harmless flu strain, but as a lethal force poised to kill tens of thousands.
That period now stands as critical time that was squandered.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2020/04/04/coronavirus-government-dysfunction/
The U.S. was beset by denial and dysfunction as the coronavirus raged
From the White House to the CDC, political and institutional failures cascaded through the system and opportunities to mitigate the pandemic were lost.
10:51 AM · Apr 4, 2020
Let me further reemphasize the point made by both Ignatius and Rogin that we need all the actos here to be open and straightforward about this matter. We have seen bad behavior in this regard by both US and Chinese leaders.
On the US side we have seen Trump firing a long list of officials who have publicly disagreed with him on his various fantastic statements regarding this. Anonymous is completely correct that his conduct has become criminal, if not for cutting funding for the WHO then certainly for suppressing alternative views while delaying doing anything about the pandemic for at least 70 days, which undoubtedly has led to thousands of people dying who did not need to.
There has also been suppression and coverups being carried out by the Chinese, from researhers disappearing to the shutdown of the Shanghai lab to the suppression of the studies done in Guangzhou. All of these kinds of actions in both the US and China need to stop, and all sides need to act together to determine the relevant facts and find useful solutions.
BTW, I am back again to whining about the various ads that show up here not a single one of which I think should be here (and if somebody is making money off this, I am disgusted). Anyway, I just noticed one sitting in the middle of my post that is from "Trump for President." I am seriously wondering how that got here and who in hell is allowing this utter garbage onto this site. I am even more disgusted now.
"There has also been suppression and coverups being carried out by the Chinese, from researchers disappearing to the shutdown of the Shanghai lab to the suppression of the studies done in Guangzhou...."
Please document these accusations. Such accusations without precise supporting references and explanation are inflammatory and dangerous. I have followed the Chinese efforts on COVID-19 closely, and am aware of no such "suppression and coverups" and await the necessary confirmation.
Please add precise documentation.
David Ignatius, "China puts even the truth on lockdown."
Josh Rogin, "The risks of collaboration with China."
[ Clarifying, these are mere political screeds to vilify 1.4 billion Chinese. These are prejudiced writings with the distressing intent of recreating the Cold War. ]
Links to the columns:
David Ignatius, "China puts even the truth on lockdown."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/how-china-can-end-the-covid-19-conspiracy-theories-before-they-get-worse/2020/04/23/4999a93a-8586-11ea-878a-86477a724bdb_story.html
Josh Rogin, "The risks of collaboration with China."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/the-coronavirus-crisis-shows-the-risks-of-scientific-collaboration-with-china/2020/04/23/4ccd5850-85a8-11ea-878a-86477a724bdb_story.html
Do keep in mind, Anonymous, that the authors of columns do not write the headlines for their columns.
I shall do some checking on the matters you request, although I have seen the story about the Guangzhou paper elsewhere.
I have also in the last day seen claims that the Chines government is refusing to let any foreign scientists, not just ones from the US, visit either of the labs in Wuhan. This claim comes from sources I do not trust, but if it is true, this is seriously not good.
Another report I have seeen, again from a source less reliable than say David Ignatius, is that at least one of the labs in question has had bats at the lab to study. If that is true, then all the arguments about how hard it is to develop this virus in a lab become irrelevant, much less the ongoing search for the supposed intermediate animal that transferred it from bats to humans. Somebody just got it from a bat in the lab.
As it is, there are also stories about an alleged Patient Zero, Huang Yenliang, who supposedly worked at WIV. Those at WIV claim this individual no longer works there and is in good health, but this individual also seems to have disappeared with nobody able to track him/her down (not sure of gender). There are certainly a lot of loose ends with this, and it would certainly be helpful if the Chinese government would let foreign scientists visit these two labs to see what is there.
Thanks a lot; I am now thinking about your argument.
Here are some things I have found with further digging.
When I googled about suppression in Shanghai I got a story about more general suppressiion of research on the origin of the virus, with all research needing to be approved by the Ministry of Science and Technology within three days of even starting it, with this applying to Fudan U. in Shanghai. This story appeared in the Guardian on April 11, a pretty reputable source not in the US.
theguardian.com/world.2020/par1/11/china-clamping-down-on-coronavirus-research-deleted-pages-show .
I pursued the story of the suppressed paper in Guangzhou, which turns out to have been written by Botao Xiao of th South China University of Technology and posted for awhile in February on ResearchGate.net, entitled "The possible origin of 2019-nCoV coronovirus." He put forward the argument about Wuhan labs possibly as a source. He then withdrew the paper on Feb. 26 declaring that is was "not based on direct proofs," which is not the same as saying it was false. This seems to be an important date.
There is now a more recent Guardian article from just five days ago about the reappearance of Wuhan citizen-journalist Li Zehua,
theguardian.com/world/2920/apr/22/missing-wuhan-citizen-journalist-reappears-after-two-months .
He had visited the most suspicious lab in Wuhan and other places and was arrested on Feb. 26, the same day Xiao withdrew his paper. Apparently he was initially charged with "creating public disorder." He managed to video his arrest, which can be found on the internet. In the end they decided to quarantine him for two months supposedly because he has visited infected areas. He just came out. Apparently two other journalists in Wuhan who disappeared about the same time he did remain missing.
There is a lot more, but the hard fact is that the Chinese officials are not at all acting in what might be called a transparent way about all this.
Oh yes, I did find at least one candidate for an intermediary animal between bats and humans, the pangolins, which some have thought might be the original source. If they are an intermdiary it is thought the transmission from bats may have happened some time ago, with it possible the crucial mutations happened in pangolins. It is uncleae if pangolins were sold at the Wuhan wet market.
I have on my own thought of another possible intermediary I have seen nobody suggest, although I do not know why not. That would be some sort of civet. A civet was the intermediary animal for the original SARS virus. I also saw that civets may have been for sale at the Wuhan wet market. Given those facts, I am surprised nobody is advocating that theory, but maybe there is a reason.
This is all excellent, while the suggestion of a civet cat as an intermediary strikes me as important for geneticists to examine and I would expect such examination to already be underway. However, what you have done in all is clearly show that Chinese authorities have been making sure that investigations and research and public release of all be rigorous and that speculation be limited. This is dealing with a national and global health crisis and there must be precision and necessary care must be taken.
As far as I can tell, and I have followed the matter since December 31, Chinese national authorities have been completely responsible and careful and open. Local authorities have been monitored, with national authorities quickly moving to Hubei Province for the duration. Local problems have been quickly and judiciously dealt with.
The WHO was informed of the emerging pneumonia on December 31, the matter was internationally reported on December 31, the United States was expressly informed on January 3 and thereafter.
Terrific series:
https://peoplesdispatch.org/2020/04/23/how-the-chinese-authorities-and-the-who-handled-the-coronavirus/
April 23, 2020
https://peoplesdispatch.org/2020/04/14/how-china-broke-the-chain-of-infection/
April 14, 2020
How China broke the chain of infection
https://peoplesdispatch.org/2020/04/07/how-china-learned-about-sars-cov-2-in-the-weeks-before-the-global-pandemic/
April 7, 2020
https://peoplesdispatch.org/2020/03/31/growing-xenophobia-against-china-in-the-midst-of-corona-shock/
March 31, 2020
The Chinese timeline, end of December through March 31:
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-04/06/c_138951662.htm
April 6, 2020
China publishes timeline on COVID-19 information sharing, int'l cooperation
As for a resident, in the midst of an epidemic, of Wuhan breaking quarantine and trying to break into a research laboratory. That is a criminal matter and such a person must be immediately arrested and again quarantined for as long as health authorities consider necessary and investigated after. This is simply a criminal matter, the likes of which other countries have had to deal with.
About supposed "patient zero Huang Yiliang," this is of course nonsense.
Huang Yiliang, by the way, was shown to be alive and well, and has had no association with the Wuhan research facility since 2015. That is why I used the term "nonsense."
Anonymous,
The lab director has claimed that Huang Yinlang is alive and well, bu digging by me finds no report of her actually making a public appearance to prove it. The first report of her as Patient Zero appeared in the Beijing News on Jan. 2, which was followed by these claims she is alive and well, although nobody will say where.
Another candidate for the earliest known case is one supposedly from Nov. 17, supposedly a 55-year old man about whom nearly nothing is known, including whether he is even alive or not, although I have seen at least one claim he was never at the wet market in Wuhan, although he was from Wuhan.
Regarding civets, many were slaughtered after the past SARS outbreak. I found one story from March 16 by Clive Jarvis in The Scientist that says that civets "have not been ruled out" as an intermediary animal between bats and humans for this virus, but that there are genetic reasons why they are less likely than pangolins or snakes or turtles.
Regarding Le Zehua, nobody has accused him of "breaking into" the lab. He was reporting on various things. He is 25 and had been working in Beijing for the CCT, but resigned and went into Wuhan partly to investigate the disappearance on Feb. 6 of Chen Quishi, who was an activist journalist who had been vocering protests in Hong Kong and had been in trouble with the government. When he disappeared (and he remains disappeared) hehad been reporting on details of the disease in Wuhan, crowds of people in hospitals and piles of corpses, this sort of thing. Another less well-known citizen reporter was local Wuhan businessman Bin Fang, who disappeared on Feb. 8. They posted reorts on You Tube, and neither of these seems to have had anything to do with the lab story.
According to various reports Le Zehua, who is also a rapper, was quarantined inh s Wuhan until March 28 but then released to stay with his family elsewhere. When he made his appearance on April 22, along with releasing the video of his arrest onf Feb. 26, he put out a saying. Reports claim he seemed very different from before, very "neutral" and low key. He provided an English translation of the saying, which I repeat here.
"The will of the people is unpredictable, the heart of the Tao is fathomless. In order to make the will of the people consistent with the heart of the Tao and reach the state of Unity of people and the state of the cosmos,, only the way is to concentrate all energy on cultivation of the good nature of the heart, do not act in extreme, do not change faith, do not be fickle, uphold the doctrine of the golden mean of Confucian orthodoxy."
I agree with Anonymous that the Chinese authorities in conjunction with the WHO have done a great deal to aid in understanding the virus, most notably by being the first to ssequence its genome and making that public. There are cleaely a lot of loose and strange ends here, but there has also been a lot of good work done there, arguably more than in the US where we have more cases and more deaths than any other nation, thanks in substantial part to the botched policies carried out by our government.
Anonymous, surely you agree that people have the right to criticize government responses and that doesn't necessarily mean they are biased in any way?
China has not performed perfectly here. USA government has also not performed perfectly to say the least. I wouldn't mind if Donald Trump tested out his theories by drinking a quart of bleach about now. Pretty sure how that ends up. He is without doubt correct that he wouldn't need to worry about the virus any longer.
Am I biased because I would say he is a moron?
Barkley Rosser:
The lab director has claimed that Huang Yanling is alive and well, bu digging by me finds no report of her actually making a public appearance to prove it....
[ Unfortunately I carelessly misspelled Huang Yanling. This response to the absurd rumors is sufficient:
https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202002/16/WS5e48dccaa310128217277d84.html
February 16, 2020
Huang Yanling, a graduate of the Wuhan Institute of Virology, a subsidiary of Chinese Academy of Sciences, was not the first person infected with novel coronavirus, nor has she been infected with the virus, the institute said on Sunday.
The institute made the statement in response to information circulated widely online that Huang, a postgraduate student at the institute, was the first patient to contract the novel coronavirus pneumonia in Wuhan, Central China's Hubei province, the outbreak epicenter.... ]
https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202002/16/WS5e48dccaa310128217277d84.html
February 16, 2020
The statement said Huang graduated with a master's degree from the institute in 2015. Since graduation, she has been working and living in other provinces and has never been infected with novel coronavirus and is in good health....
[ No other response is necessary. No further response would be appropriate. The privacy of any former student should of course be respected, especially so in regard to a malicious rumor. ]
Barkley Rosser:
The lab director has claimed that Huang Yanling is alive and well, but digging by me finds no report of her actually making a public appearance to prove it....
[ There has long been an intent among selected influential figures in the United States to ruin China. That intent was especially cultivated by the current president from the last campaign on and has evidently grown. I find this intent thoroughly immoral. ]
https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-04-26/The-GOP-strategy-will-turn-America-into-a-cauldron-of-hatred-PZ2xIHqqC4/index.html
April 26, 2020
The GOP strategy will turn America into a cauldron of hatred
By Tom Fowdy
On Friday night a report * emerged in Politico that contained details of a 57-page leaked document from America's Republican Party detailing their strategy for the upcoming elections. The booklet recommended that candidates should exclusively focus their electoral push on scapegoating China, blaming them for the COVID-19 epidemic which it described as a "hit and run."
The document urges the party to "not defend Trump" but to attack Beijing and focus on portraying the Democrats as "soft on China," arguing that this will constitute an "effective strategy." The document was written by Brett O' Donnell, who has also advised Mike Pompeo and Arkansas Senator Tom Cotton.
Those following American politics closely are not likely to be surprised by this development....
* https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/24/gop-memo-anti-china-coronavirus-207244
Even as Jews through Europe were persecuted over centuries in the midst of infectious illness outbreaks, influential figures in the United States are now looking to persecute Chinese. This is morally wrong and terrifying.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/opinion/sunday/coronavirus-orhan-pamuk.html
April 23, 2020
What the Great Pandemic Novels Teach Us
People have always responded to epidemics by spreading rumor and false information and portraying the disease as foreign and brought in with malicious intent.
By Orhan Pamuk
Failing to understand the prejudice that has been and is being directed against 1.4 billion Chinese, even as the Chinese were made prejudicial targets before and following the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 is distressing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act
Criticizing the Chinese government and prejudice against people who are Chinese are two completely different things! Government policy should ALWAYS be questioned and criticized where necessary. Does not matter if that government is in the USA or China or Germany or Nigeria.
This will be my last comment on this thread as it has degenerated into exactly what I expected it would, Anonymous declaring that lots of factual reports must be wrong or ignored because Trump and his associates are engaging in nasty attacks on China. I agree with Jerry that noting problems with things with Chinese policy cannot be disallowed because of bad behavior by the Trump administration, behavior we are all fully aware of and agree is bad, anymore than false claims by the Chinese government against the Trump administration, notably this one that the virus started in the US and was carried to Wuhan by US soldiers should justify forbidding anybody else from criticizing any actions by the Trump administration.
Anyway, given the track record of false statements coming from various people in China with the clear suppression of reporting on relevant matters relating to the origin of the virus to the point of making people disappear, this statement by the lab director cannot be accepted unquestioningly without further evidence. I had not noted it before, but in fact Josh Rogin's column addressed this issue precisely at its conclusion with respect to this particular lab director, that given this phenomenon of people disappearing who disagree with what is clearly an official line, her statements about "on her life" must be viewed very seriously in that she may be concerned about her life if she were to disagree with the official line.
As I see it, especially in light od all these many disturbing reports, the Chinese government could fairly easily allay much of this suspicion by being a bit more open on certain things.
1. Let a team of international scientists, maybe one affiliated with the WHO, visit the labs in question in Wuhan. If in fact they are not engaged in secret military research, and most have made no such claims, then it is not at all clear why nobody should be allowed to visit these labs if in fact they had nothing to do with the origin of the virus.
2. Let Huang Yenling make a public statement showing that indeed she is alive and well. I think this could be done without revealing precisely where she is now, although offhand I do not see why that should be some super state secret. After all, they have let Le Zehua make his strange public statement, even allowed him to publicize the video he made of him being arrested. I see no clear eeason whatsoever why this Huang must not make any sort of public statement to prove that she is indeed alive and well.
3. Provide more details regarding the various early patients.
I have called for transparency by both the US and China on this matter, and I see no reasonable reason at all why the Chinese government cannot do any of the above. If the Wuhan labs really had nothing to do with this origin, they should do so.
Barkley Rosser
I am so sorry. I really do try to comment intelligently and carefully and fairly, but I often seem to go wrong. You are remarkably patient and I always appreciate the time you take to correct me.
I realize after your painstaking explanation that you are completely right and I am completely wrong. I now agree with your argument completely, and am sorry I learn so slowly.
I do thank you for all your consideration. What you are in fact doing is teaching me to be a better teacher. Thank you for tolerating me. I hope to do better with your help.
All you have written here I can agree with. I do try.
Thank you, as always.
Jerry Brown:
"Criticizing the Chinese government and prejudice against people who are Chinese are two completely different things! Government policy should ALWAYS be questioned and criticized where necessary. Does not matter if that government is in the USA or China or Germany or Nigeria."
Yes, this is completely correct. I agreed with your comments, and disputed none. You were always right, and I never argued with what you wrote.
Thank you so much for your help. I did agree with all your wrote.
Jerry Brown:
Please know that I never argued with any comment you made. I am sure you are right, and never even thought about questioning or arguing with any comment you made. You are completely right.
Yeah, I said no more comments from me, but thanks, Anonymous.
Having given you a hard time I do want to acknowledge your efforts to keep us all honest and careful not to mindlessly repeat anti-Chinese points. These matters need to be carefully vetted, and a serious bottom line to all this is how much we still really so not know.
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